Porschia: [00:00:00] Hello, I’m Portia Parker Griffin, and I want to welcome you to the career 101 podcast, a place for ambitious professionals and seasoned executives who want an edge in their career. We’re talking about all of the things you were never taught or told when it comes to career growth, development, and change.
Now let’s get into it.
Today, we are talking about diversity 101. Why diversity in the workplace is important with Dr. Jill Wiener, a nationally renowned expert in physician wellness. Dr. Jill Wiener has published several articles on Kevin MD led physician wellness programs around the country and lectured nationally on stress and the benefits of meditation and tapping.
An anti racist, Jill is the co creator of the CME [00:01:00] and SHRM accredited Conscious Anti Racism Training Programs, in which she, along with her business partner, Dr. Myesha Clair Bourne, combine their insights from their own anti racism journey with her mind body expertise and her 10 years of experience practicing medicine.
They have worked with clients both in healthcare and corporate, such as the Georgia Aquarium, Yale University, the American Medical Association, and others. Jill is a facilitator for the ACGME’s Equity Matters programs, the host of the Conscious Anti Racism podcast, and the author of the best selling Conscious Anti Racism book with Dr.
Clare Bourne. Hi Jill, how are you
Jill: today? Hi, I’m good. Thanks for having me. Great. We
Porschia: are excited to have you with us to discuss Diversity 101. Why [00:02:00] diversity in the workplace is important. But first, we want to know a little more about you. So, tell me about 7 year
Jill: old Jill. Seven year old Jill had a lot of energy.
Um, yeah, I mean, I had a pretty like regular upbringing here in Atlanta and I, I was not ADD, but I did have a lot of energy and it might’ve been hard to contain me at times. Um, and I just loved learning and, um, I think I laughed a lot and smiled a lot. I’ve been told that I was. You know, a fun personality.
Porschia: Cool. Cool. So what did you want to be when you
Jill: grew up? I used to want to be, when I was real little, I wanted to be a lawyer. And then I wanted to be a ballet dancer. And then I wanted to be in a French interpreter. And then doctor was the next one after that.
Porschia: [00:03:00] Wow. Those are all really exciting things, all different, but very exciting.
Exciting. Um, so tell us Jill about some highlights or pivotal moments in your career, before you started your own business.
Jill: Um, well, I guess there’s two big pivots. There’s a pivot from practicing medicine to not practicing medicine. And then there’s like the pivot from being a meditation teacher to doing anti racism work, which, which do you prefer?
Yeah. I mean, I’d love
Porschia: to hear, I guess, about the first one initially. Right. So, um, going from practicing medicine, um, and transitioning.
Jill: Sure. So I was, um, I went straight through college to med school to residency. And, um, I was five years into my practice, um, and at rush hospital in Chicago, uh, as an internal medicine doctor, just like practicing medicine.
It was fine. I had had some [00:04:00] episodes of burnout, but nothing major. And I was enjoying my job. Um, and then I got really burnt out in 2011 and had always been very like, Not, I don’t want to say narrow world view, but in terms of spirituality, in terms of meditation, in terms of alternative methods to, uh, you know, improve my life, I was very straight and narrow with that and, um, never very spiritual, always very anxious and, um, my burnout got so bad that my kind of Brain, my heart got cracked open just a little bit to want to see if there was something else out there.
And I met someone who told me they meditated twice a day and I was like, I need to know all about that. And so I went to go hear their teacher speak about meditation. This is a kind called Vedic meditation, which is very different from mindfulness. And I was just hearing this teacher speak. And I thought, this is.
Exactly what’s going on inside me. How does, how does he know? And I didn’t even know [00:05:00] words for how I was feeling, um, in terms of stress reactions and, and constantly being on overdrive mentally. And so I signed up for this meditation course. Um, and within four days of the course, I was meditating easily 20 minutes, twice a day, and it felt great.
And I actually was very happy practicing medicine. Um, my burnout. Mind got better. A lot of people’s. It’s not about meditation. It’s about the system. But for me, it was really about my own internal landscape. And, um, at some point, I decided I wanted to become a meditation teacher, um, which is 3 months in India.
And then I always thought, well, I’ll become a meditation teacher and then I’ll come back to Chicago and I’ll teach meditation part time and be a hospital medicine doctor part time because that was my. I like couldn’t conceive of a world outside of me practicing medicine. It’s not like I thought of it and said, no, I just never even conceived of it.
And, um, I think because of the meditation, it sort of allowed my brain to have a, just a different [00:06:00] perspective on, on change and opportunity and listening to my inner. Voice or inner guide and, um, had the opportunity to move overseas to China before I was going to go to India. And that would have required me, like, leaving my job.
I was going to be leaving Chicago, um, for this new opportunity. And I just thought like, you only live once and I might as well do this opportunity and kind of see where it goes. And I had planned on spending longer there. It was actually for a personal, a fun, personal thing. And, um, so then I was out of medicine for about six months.
Did my teacher training in India for three months. Uh, the personal thing in China did not stay appealing to me anymore. I ended up moving back to Atlanta after my teacher training and. Not able to go back. I just couldn’t imagine myself going back into practice medicine. It didn’t feel like it resonated with me anymore.
And I think for certainly doctors, I’m assuming a lot [00:07:00] of other professionals too, you were like on this career road for so long and this is path and you keep following the next step. And you sometimes get a sense that you don’t have anything else to offer the world because you’ve been trained so specifically in one thing.
And so that’s how I had felt like, what if I left medicine, what would I even do? I mean, I never. I don’t have any other skills, but I had a skill. I was able to teach meditation and I really loved the practice and how it changed my life. So that’s what I decided to start doing full time. Um, and that was the transition.
Um, yeah, so I think that’s probably, it was like a series of events that led to me deciding to no longer practice medicine in Chicago. I never intended to not go back. I never thought like, oh, I’m leaving medicine. Goodbye. This is my final moment. But, um, it’s been I left in 2015. So it’s been 8 years. Um, yeah, so that’s it.
And I wouldn’t have it any other way. I mean, it, it.
[00:08:00] Yeah.
Porschia: Wow. Um, that is such, wow. Such a touching story. And I want to thank you for sharing it because you touched on a lot of aspects that our clients, um, usually experience at some point in their careers, if not multiple times. Right. I heard you mentioned, you know, burnout and, you know, perhaps some anxiety.
Yeah. Um, at certain points, um, also having the courage to kind of make that career change and really see that you have more to offer than just what you might have perceived in the past. So all of that is just so powerful. Thank you for sharing that, um, with us, Jill. Um, what would you say has been your biggest career challenge so far before, um, I guess starting this, this business that you have now?
Jill: Um, I, oh gosh, I mean, there are so many, but I think I was trained as a doctor. I was employed by a hospital. I had a check coming every two weeks [00:09:00] that was for a pretty, you know, handsome amount of money. And I had like a, you know, I had a lot of debt from med school, but like everything was financially predictable.
And I only knew how to be a doctor. So yes, I trained to be a meditation teacher, but I had to get myself out there. I had to learn social media. I had to build a website. I had to learn marketing and design and all of this stuff. And so I think, and I love that. I actually really enjoy doing all those things.
And I like the, the process of, of that growth as well, in addition to what I do professionally, but, um, it took a lot of time for me to figure out. And there was a lot of. You know, things, ideas for programs that I had that I was like, this is amazing. And then no one wanted to buy it. And how about this? And then no one wanted to buy it.
And then I’d have some successes in between. So I think learning how to be an entrepreneur is no one, you know, I didn’t think about any of that stuff. So, [00:10:00] um, yeah, I w I would say that’s, that’s been the biggest growth area.
Porschia: Yeah. Yeah. Entrepreneurship. There’s so many moving parts like you mentioned. Um, and we try to touch on some of those on the podcast and then also, um, in our, in our membership called the Brave Bird Career Alliance, we have a whole entrepreneurship track, but you’re right.
There’s just so much to it. And when you decide, Hey, I want to start a business, all of that. That you need to know is not necessarily clear, right? And how to do those things. So, yeah, I could definitely identify with that challenge. Jill, you have such an interesting background. What made you decide to then make that second pivot that you were talking about, right?
So, and you’re still doing the meditation work as well, but also to kind of start exploring the anti racism side of things.
Jill: Yeah, I mean, I was, um, for anyone listening, I [00:11:00] am a, I’m a white woman. Um, uh, and I always thought that I was like, I mean, I’m just the typical, like, I’m one of the good ones. I’m liberal.
I’m not racist, all of those things. And, um, Got called out on something I wrote in 2016, that someone told me it was privileged. And I was like, I’m not racist. What are you talking about? And I had this whole like defensive moment in my own brain, but still very defensive moment. And I was like, well, I’m going to prove her wrong.
I’m going to read this book and show that I’m not racist. And then I like read the book and I was like, Oh crap. I have so much to work on. And I, you know, understood what privilege, how, what that meant and how it related to racism and just realizing. There was so, so, so much in this world that I hadn’t been paying attention to, um, and that once, once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it.
And then as I was doing my own personal work, um, for years and years, there’d be times where I would [00:12:00] kind of shut down because. That’s what we do. Uh, we whiteness will shut down in the face of like change and also humans. Also, sometimes when something seems overwhelming or, or a lot or uncomfortable, we also tend to shut down.
And so I had to use a lot of my own tools to get, get through that, allow, allow myself to be defensive and then what, you know, to learn from that. And so, um, I eventually did an, an allyship training in 2019 and, um, with, um, Leslie Mack and Paige Ingram, um, Called Allies in Action. And we were basically creating a pro part of it was to create a project moving forward.
And mine was, uh, with their help and guidance to, to create tools to help white people show up in anti racism and diversity equity inclusion spaces in a, in a way that is productive and doesn’t derail things and doesn’t center them and, and, uh, [00:13:00] doesn’t cause And I never thought that I’d be Like I just sort of thought I’m some white lady who knows some tools and like, hopefully they’ll help some other people.
Um, and before that had never conceived of doing anything professionally in this space. Um, and then, um, I connected with my partner, Maisha, Dr. Maisha Claiborne. Right before COVID hit, uh, in March of 2020, uh, she also lives in Atlanta. We met for lunch and she said, Hey, have you ever thought about working with a black person?
Cause you’re kind of missing a big perspective in this. And I said, absolutely. I just didn’t know anyone who would want to work. I just didn’t ever think that I would. Have that, that like, um, opportunity, like that I would be, someone would want to work with me, I guess. Um, and so she liked kind of the concept behind what was then and now still called conscious anti racism.
And she has her own, [00:14:00] uh, skillset and experience and she’s also a physician. So she kind of added her work into what we, what I was already doing. And that was really where it started to take off, um, because we were providing a perspective that was. wider, um, and, um, more skills and more tools. And, um, it’s been, yeah, it’s been pretty amazing, uh, been being able to work with her.
Porschia: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve met my Isha and I definitely think that you guys in a partnership is great because there’s just more perspectives and different points of view. Um, and I think. Also, when you are working with organizations, um, sometimes people just feel more comfortable if they see someone who looks like them.
And, um, that might kind of enhance some conversations. Um, so many executives and professionals hear that they [00:15:00] should focus on diversity. From your perspective, why is diversity in the workplace
Jill: important? Um, you know, that’s a great question. I think there’s like the book reason why, like there’s the financial, um, reason, which is, um, what is it?
Deloitte has a big study that came out. I’m pretty sure I don’t focus on that as much, but a big study that shows the diverse work, you know, teams have better financial outcomes. So there is actual evidence to show that diversity in a workplace is going to improve outcomes. So there is, I think that’s very important.
Um, I think
Just like me working by myself, thinking I knew what I was talking about. I knew some of what I was talking about, but I was missing a lot of perspectives. So for what, whatever we were working on, it happens to be anti [00:16:00] racism and DEI work, but having people with different backgrounds and identities is going to bring in, um, more perspectives and a better way to connect with clients and to create content and products and services that are going to make the customers happier and make the clients happier.
So. Um, you know, I’m just thinking of example of a client we worked with who didn’t, uh, there was like a, an issue at his work because they didn’t have a prayer room for their Muslim employees and they didn’t have anywhere to pray. And so he was like, ah, that was a blind spot. I don’t I didn’t even think about that.
Well, yeah, he didn’t think about it because he’s. Part of the normal, the Christian normative culture. So he didn’t have to think about it. So I think that when you have people of other identities, whether it’s race or, um, you know, we primarily focus on race, but in our DEI work, it’s, it’s going to be that, and, um, [00:17:00] physical ability, um, uh, gender identity, all of that.
If you don’t know that you’re, you don’t know what you don’t know if you don’t have to think about it. And so I think bringing in people, not just to hire them, but to have them have an actual voice and for them to feel comfortable in the workspace and to feel like they belong and they’re valued. Um, I think that is can only be good for business.
And I think a lot of people in power, which tend tends to be a predominantly white male space, but not always. Feel like it’s going to take away from them. Like, if I give up some, it’s like giving up power for other people. And I think that’s the wrong way to approach it. There’s so many other better ways to approach it because we all learn and we all get better when there’s more.
Voices and more perspectives.
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Yeah. You said a lot of, of. Great things there. I did read that Deloitte study on diversity, and I think there have been some other studies, too, that have really talked about the ROI of having, um, diverse, not only executive teams, but just other kind of decision making management teams as well. Um, one of the areas that we work with a lot of our business clients on, um, is the multi generational part [00:19:00] of the, uh, Equation and 1 of the studies I read, this wasn’t the Deloitte 1.
They also included age diversity in there as well. Right? So having people of different generations, in addition to some of the other, um, you know, groups that we tend to think of when we talk about diversity. Also added to, um, the financial, uh, benefits and outcomes that, that come from having diverse groups.
So Jill, uh, when you are out and about in companies, what are some misconceptions about diversity you see among executives and professionals? Well,
Jill: okay. So I think the first one I already mentioned, or one of the ones is That it’s a zero sum game and that somebody is a winner and somebody’s a loser in this, which is not true.
Um, and then there’s this weird kind of linguistic catch 22, maybe, uh, I’ve [00:20:00] never used that term to describe this, but this glossing over anti black racism and calling it DEI and, and then like lumping it all in and then people getting mad if we talk about racism because, I don’t know. We’re focusing too much on race or something like that.
So I think that when companies don’t acknowledge, um, that there’s. I think none of us are free until we’re all free, and that we need to actually, um, we need to address all inequities in order to get to a place where, um, there is true equity and belonging, uh, and inclusion in a, in a workplace. We have to do the hard stuff, and it feels yucky, and it makes us confront stuff we don’t want to think about, and it’s not just white people that have to.
I mean, I, we worked with a, a black CEO recently, male, and he [00:21:00] hired a bunch of, White men to fill roles in a leadership team that, like, he didn’t think, like, this would have been a great opportunity for women or women of color or some, some people with disabilities or, you know, there’s so, so there’s the work isn’t easy.
And I think that when we lump it all in as and we don’t let it. We don’t allow ourselves to stretch and grow from it. Um, I think we do it a disservice and it can fail, honestly, um, diversity attempts if they’re not done if they’re kind of check the box, which they can often be like everyone watch this one hour video and then we’ve like, check we’re all none of us are racist now and we’re all we’re all perfect.
It’s not going to work because it’s not coming from there has to be hard work in there. There has to be soul work in there. And if there’s not. Then we don’t, we don’t see the reason why it’s actually important. We don’t see from someone else’s perspective.
Porschia: Mm hmm. [00:22:00] Well, a lot of good things there. And I think, um, you know, you started answering my next question, um, with that kind of, you know, check the checkbox, you know, um, for compliance reasons or whatever reasons, um, you know, people just kind of throw in, you know, a video training and say, Hey, everybody’s got it together.
But what are some of the other mistakes that you see companies make with their diversity initiatives?
Jill: Um, well, putting okay. So 1 would be like, putting a white man in charge of all the diversity projects or someone white. I mean, there’s there may be no other options. It might just be like an entirely white company and someone’s doing it.
But I think. When someone is a member of a dominant identity that is in power, it is hard to then create a space that’s going to not replicate that. So, um, but then on the other side, [00:23:00] conversely, putting black folks or other people of color in DEI roles. Without any funding without any resources with all like, sort of like, oh, yeah, we hired the person.
It’s just another check the box kind of thing. We hired the person. It’s all their fault if we don’t all change, you know, if all the outcomes don’t don’t come, but we’re not giving them any time or resources to do it. We’re training to do it. Um, I think that’s another huge mistake and and can again, kind of replicate the whole the whole system that we’re trying to.
improve. Yeah.
Porschia: Yeah. Um, Jill, we have had quite a few, um, individual clients, uh, some of our career coaching clients who were, you know, focusing on DE& I, whether they were, you know, directors or VPs, or maybe like a program manager of DE& I. And one thing I have heard[00:24:00]
And they tell me just kind of what you mentioned. I don’t want to go to a company where DE& I is all talk, right? So I do all of this work and they don’t implement anything or they’re not serious about changing. Um, so I have heard that, you know, from our individual clients about a lot of companies kind of just having that kind of check the checkbox.
kind
Jill: of thing. Yeah. And it’s a waste, you know, a waste of opportunity of energy of so many things.
Porschia: Yeah. Yeah. So what are some tips that you can share to help someone be an advocate of diversity?
Jill: That’s a great question. I think, um, I’m biased because I’m a anti racism trainer. [00:25:00] And we believe in giving, teaching people tools to do this work, because the work isn’t easy.
And so if you think about like a kid who tries to, I don’t know, play baseball for the first time or paint watercolors for the first time, unless you’re like a prodigy, it’s usually not going to go amazingly well the first time. And the kid might be like, no, I don’t want to do it because I’m not good at it.
So, and so is better. I’m going to, I’m going to just not do it. The same thing can happen as an adult when you’re trying new things. And, um, If you are somebody who has not been on a lived experience of racism or other forms of your other identities being, um, marginalized. It, as I mentioned before, it can, it can stop you in your tracks when you get to that point where you’re outside your comfort zone too much, it actually can activate like a fight or flight trauma response.
Um, and so, which is like a whole other, a whole other topic, but, but that shut down. Is no joke. And it’s, it’s not [00:26:00] necessarily like a voluntary thing, but it happens. And so we need to teach people, how do you deal with it when it’s that uncomfortable? And for people who do have identities that are marginalized, what are tools, how can you use those same tools to care for yourself as you’re engaging in this work and maybe not getting the support you need and maybe still enduring, uh, you know, microaggressions or, I don’t know how you feel about that word.
I know it’s not, it’s not, it’s not like a favorite word because they are still aggressions. They are still, you They land in the body as as aggressions. But, um, so so if we can all learn these tools to regulate ourselves in for whatever our role is and whatever our purposes, I think that is that is the beginning.
And that is, I think, a foundation that we need in order to do this work in a sustainable way. Because it’s really, really easy for someone who looks like me to disengage. It’s too easy. And, um, I’ve been that person and I, it’s not [00:27:00] like everything I do in the whole world. You know, I, you, you said in my bio, like I’m an anti racist and I think I usually write in there like an aspiring anti racist because it’s, it’s a constant, it’s a constant thing.
I’m not going to do it. I can’t just say that that’s what I am and poof, that’s what I am. I have to do it every, every decision I make, there’s something there to, to think about. And so I think without tools. We’re just asking people to do something that doesn’t come naturally and we’ve been sort of trained against as we’re raised in this culture so that that would be my advice is to start with training that includes tools that allows people to learn about systemic oppression and racism.
And how do I handle it when I shut down? How do I handle it when I’m defensive? How do I handle it when someone I’m talking to gets defensive? How does trauma show up? All of that.
Porschia: Yeah. Yeah, I think all of that is very, um, very deep and I think very needed. [00:28:00] Um, Having the tools like you mentioned, I think are really important.
And then from my perspective to in addition to the tools, kind of what you you mentioned about just understanding what some of these concepts are. Um, I was in, um, a group of of people that um, These were, you know, generally executives, uh, and higher level professionals and, uh, someone was talking about, you know, D.
- and I and someone, you know, kind of questioned what is systemic racism and, you know, does, I mean, well, what does that explain it? Give me an example. Does that exist? And I was the only black person in the room. So, of course, kind of had this experience and I’m sure, you know. Okay. Many black people have where it’s kind of like you’re the only black person in the room.
So then everyone turns and looks at you to answer the question, you know, and, um, you know, I think it’s important, you know, I mean, for that gentleman, I just, you know, gave some [00:29:00] examples of. What systemic racism is until, you know, I’m not a D and I expert, you know, there are people who, you know, dive deep into the research, but just understanding that some of these things exist and having definitions and examples of these concepts, because a lot of people just think it’s it’s it’s a made up thing.
And then also to your point about the tools, 1 thing I would add also is just always, um, and I don’t know if you guys have a tool for this, or if this is an exercise in 1 of your trainings, but, um, really just thinking about other people’s points of view. Right? So, um. Not everyone in, you know, people are not a monolith, right?
Everyone in a certain group doesn’t think the same way, right? And so I’ve been in groups where people are minorities, but they don’t think that, you know, other minorities even have, uh, had some of these You know, uh, experiences with systemic racism, right? And it doesn’t exist. And this person’s a minority.
So, [00:30:00] right, they might be a black person, but they don’t think because they haven’t experienced racism, they’re acting like it doesn’t exist, you know? Um, so I think, you know, really having some kind of tool or training or experience where you really look at points of view and it’s not just all about your
Jill: experience.
I think that’s so important, Portia. Maisha does a lot of our communication work. That’s her specialty. And, um, and I think also this really expanding our ability to hold space for more than one thing at one time. More than one truth. I’ll give the example. I am a Jewish woman. So I have experience in my life, like Some of the things that go along with being a Jewish person in terms of discrimination and it might give me some slight insight into what it might be like for another identity and their experience, just knowing that, like, it really sucks to have to think about that.
But it doesn’t mean that I know anything about that. It doesn’t mean that. Mine is more or mine is less, even though I think [00:31:00] my experience is definitely nowhere near the experience of, of, of living with black skin in this country, but like, it’s not necessarily about that. It’s like, can I have my experience and not take up all the space in the room?
Can I have my experience and allow other people’s experience to be the same and to hold space for people who are also Jewish, who are like, everything’s, I don’t know, like, for, for me, it’s hard to see people not to see anti blackness in Jewish spaces because. I feel like Jewish people don’t want to see anti Semitism in black spaces, but we all have to see that, like, we all have blind spots.
And we can have our own experience and we can learn about other people’s as well. And that’s a tool to develop. I mean, it’s, it’s a skill. It’s not, it’s not, doesn’t come naturally because we tend to see the world in our own, in our own, um,
Porschia: little bubble. Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell us more about your business conscious [00:32:00] anti racism.
Jill: So we do, um, we do anti racism education, uh, and diversity, equity, and inclusion consulting in the anti and. In the DEI consulting that we do, we incorporate a lot of the trainings that we offer in the anti racism space. Um, so we have an online course, um, and we have, it’s all on our website, um, by the same name.
But we have an online course, we have a book, we do live trainings, um, and we really like to teach people, like, this is, these are ways, we talk a lot about the characteristics of white supremacism culture, which can shut a lot of people down, of all identities, because that, that even those words can be very, um, activating for people who.
Are on the receiving end of that culture. Um, but we, we really want to talk about it in a way that allows people to, um, to learn without [00:33:00] blame and to make mistakes and to learn how to repair harm. And to, like, we all have things to learn, not glossing, not glossing over anything. I mean, we say what needs to be said for sure, but we want people to see, like, it’s not really always obvious the way racism is going to show up and.
Here’s some ways, like perfectionism actually, that’s, and defensiveness, those are all things that uphold this, this culture, so I think what we do is really help teach people how to identify when, when white supremacism culture shows up. And then they can speak up, care for themselves, do whatever needs to be done to start to recognize it and then, um, do something about it.
So, so that’s really what we focus on. We do a lot of work in the healthcare space cause we’re both doctors, but we also work, um, outside of healthcare as well.
Porschia: Great, great. Well, we will be providing a link to your website and your other social channels in our show notes so that people can find you online.
Um, [00:34:00] but what is the best way for someone to get in touch with
Jill: you? Um, with me personally, I think email is probably best info at jillweiner. com, J I L L W E N E R. com. Um, just check the spelling of my last name because it’s never what people think it is. Um, so info at jillweiner. com email is the best way.
Um, and then I can always direct people to. Information they might they might need or want. Great.
Porschia: So my last question, Jill, that I like to ask every guest. Um, how do you think executives or professionals can get a positive edge in their career?
Jill: Um. Allow space for things not to turn out the way you think they’re going should turn out or will turn out and allow space if possible, not toxic positivity, like shine on my, you know, like I’m happy when I’m not happy, but if [00:35:00] we, if a thing isn’t happening and we’re resisting that, if we can. Allow space and look around and see what, what else might be happening instead that could be even better.
I think that’s, um, been very helpful for me and very, I wish I could follow that all the time, but
Porschia: well, that’s great. That’s great. Jill, you have shared a lot of unique insights with us today, and I think we’ve gone really deep in a short amount of time. So that is great. And I’m sure that our listeners can use this.
Information to be more confident, uh, in their own career. So we appreciate you being with us. Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure. This episode was brought to you by the Brave Bird Career Alliance, the go to membership designed for seasoned executives and ambitious professionals with everything you need for career planning, strategy, training, and support.[00:36:00]
Thank you again for listening to the Career 101 podcast. I hope you have at least one key takeaway that you can use in your own career. If you enjoyed hanging out with us, please rate, subscribe, and share this podcast. Until next time, here’s to your success.
